Alastair Campbell came to UCL for a special opening event of the UCL Department of Political Science's Policy & Practice seminar series for 2023-24, so discuss how young people should get involved with politics and help to save democracy.
Political Strategist, New European editor-at-large, mental health campaigner and co-host of the country’s Number 1 podcast, The Rest is Politics, Alastair Campbell came to UCL for a special opening event of the UCL Department of Political Science's Policy & Practice seminar series for 2023-24, in partnership with the UCL European Institute and UCL Policy Lab.
His new book "But What Can I Do?" went straight to the top of the Sunday Times best-seller lists. In it, Campbell argues that the next generation has to rescue politics from the populist, post-truth morass into which it has fallen in the era of Trump, Johnson, Brexit and Putin. This event explored the hopes and concerns of young people from across UCL and London about engaging in politics, and consider how our political system can become more open to their participation.
Facilitated by the brilliant Julia Macfarlane of ABC News and joined on stage by students from UCL Political Science, Alastair will seek to address the challenge laid out in the sub-title of his book: Why Politics Has Gone So Wrong, and How YOU Can Help Fix It.
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Julia Macfarlane 0:05
First of all, Alastair Campbell doesn't need an introduction really. But in the interest of being thorough, Alastair started off as a journalist working in Fleet Street for The Mirror, then went on to work for the Labour Party as Tony Blair's press secretary, spokesman and director of communications. After politics, Alastair returned to journalism, editing The New European, writing for GQ, and co-hosting with Rory Stewart 'The Rest is Politics' podcast. And, of course, author of more than a dozen books, including your diaries on 'The Blair Years', and 'But What Can I Do', which we're all here to discuss tonight.
We also have joining us Professor Meg Russell. She's a former Political Adviser for the Labour Party and now Professor of British and Comparative Politics in the UCL Department of Political Science, where she teaches both politics and directs the research centre, the Constitution Unit. Meg's most recent book was published in March this year, 'The Parliamentary Battle over Brexit'.
We have four brilliant students joining us this evening. We have Ismail Abbas, studying political science; Carolina Tani, a student in the Department of Political Science as well; Sofia Massacesi - I am so sorry if I have butchered that - a student in the Department of Political Science as well and European Institute Ambassador; and Ahmad Ismail, Equity and Inclusion Officer at the Student Union.
Alastair, I want to start off with asking you why you wrote the book and what it is you're trying to achieve having published it.
Alastair Campbell 1:37
Well I started to write it as a letter to the next generation. That was the idea. And the idea was that I'm very proud of what we did as a government, but you have to accept that politically the world is in a real mess, a real mess.
And I was sort of saying, right, well, whatever good we've done along the way, we've all clearly done something very, very wrong, so you lot have got to sorted out. And here's my kind of thinking about what I think enduring stuff - that maybe whatever you think of my generation - you guys can take on. So that's how it started.
And then what happened was, because I thought, well, I need to get a few thoughts of that from young people, so I sent it to probably about ten to a dozen young people that I know - some in my family, some outside my family, people I just got to know through doing various things. And the stuff that then came back made me do a completely different sort of book.
And I guess, 'But What Can I do?', the title comes from the fact that that's what people kept saying. You know, 'I think politics is broken', 'I think that this country's had it', 'I think Brexit is a disaster', 'I think the party system doesn't work', da-da-da-da-dah - all the stuff that you hear all the time. 'But what can I do?' 'Well, but what can I do?' Or, 'but what can I do?' You know, so it was just that sort of...
And so I thought I'd sit down and try to answer that.
And so it goes through three stages, not all of the same length. I warn those who do read it and all who buy it for others - because Christmas just comes along like that, in no time it'll be here - the first third is unremittingly depressing. That's the analysis of kind of where we've got, how we've got to where we are. That's about populism, polarisation, post truthery, which kind of started really in the modern age with Putin; Trump's a big symbol of it; but actually we've seen some amazing examples of it just this weekend in Manchester.
Then the second part is really kind of: how do you look after yourself? How do you survive in what can be a really unpleasant environment? And that's where I do a lot of stuff about mental health and resilience and that kind of thing.
And then the third part is like, I've explained how bad things are, I've explained how horrible it can be for you as an individual. If you're still with me, right, here's why it's still worth doing, and here's why I think we have to do it, and here's how, technically.
So obviously the focus is very much through a British lens, if you like. So it sort of explains things that politics isn't just about being a prime minister or a cabinet minister or an MP. Politics is about what you can decide to do to try to make change in the areas where you want to see change.
And it's really trying to cut through the cynicism that surrounds politics. And I completely understand why people are so cynical, I really do. But if we just absorb that cynicism, decide there's nothing we can do, then we leave it to these grifters and chancers and charlatans.
I honestly do think that... I wrote a piece for The Metro today about the Tory party conference. So I was a journalist, as you said. When Margaret Thatcher was prime minister - which was most of my time as a journalist for a long time - it was, like, I disagreed with virtually everything she said and did, but I had respect for her and for institutions that she was, kind of, you know, part of.
I just think it is a consequence of our absolute failure to protect our political and media culture and the institutions that we're supposed to uphold that we've had this succession of truly dreadful prime ministers, who, you know, who are still around.
I mean, honestly, this week, if I was Liz Truss, I'd just want to hide away for the rest of my life. And she's up there sort of parading herself as she can come back. I think Boris Johnson in his heart thinks he can come back. So Trump definitely thinks he can come back and he might.
So it's basically saying: if we all just turn away from this, we've had it. We've had it. And I do honestly think it's now up to the younger generation to say, right, okay, we get it and we are going to be the people who fight for this. We are the people are going to change this.
And I actually am confident that that can happen. Since the book came out I've been inundated with schools asking me to go and talk in them. And honestly that is the only place where I get hope at the moment. I go in there and I see you know...
And you've got to be really careful because their parents make them cynical, I think sometimes their teachers make them cynical, the media make them cynical. And so that's why my next book is actually going to be politics for primary schools because I think that's where you've got to start with this stuff. We've got a crisis of political education in this country.
Julia Macfarlane 6:34
One of the things I think that's very interesting about your book is you've split it in between a kind of post-mortem analysis section, as you said, and then it is very much part handbook. And in parts of it, you literally give a list of things that you advise young people to do and things that they must remember embarking on careers, either in politics but media, activism.
Meg, Alastair mentioned something. He mentioned that a lot of his book is through the British lens, and there's lots of examples of British politics and politicians. But of course, Trump, and what has happened in America, has filtered through. You talk a lot about populism, the spread of populism and what that's done to our political discourse.
Meg, I have noticed an increasing sort of Americanisation of our media, of our politics. A lot of things have been shifting across the Atlantic. Why do you think that is and what are your feelings on that?
Meg Russell 7:36
That's not the question I was expecting. Let me just start as the first UCL speaker by welcoming you to UCL. It's absolutely terrific that you're doing this event here for what I think is going to be an audience very much with very many of our brilliant students in it, and with four of our brilliant students on the stage. So we're really grateful to you for being here.
And congratulations on the book. I think it's a really important book and I really recommend it.
And I think it does two very, very important things.
One, I think your analysis, which does touch to an extent on Julia's question of the state of politics around the world, as well as in the UK. What we talk about as - I'm not sure whether you use this term or not, I don't remember - democratic backsliding, which is effectively the gradual erosion of democracy, which is undoubtedly happening in many countries around the world. And many people, clearly including you, believe that the UK is part of that. And you know, there are international movements going on here. I think that analysis is really clear and cogent and readable, and I would strongly recommend that. So you know, that's a really important reason for reading the book.
And then obviously the second reason is your encouragement of people not to turn away, but to engage. And I think that's really, really important because it is extremely tempting, even for politics professors, to turn away. I mean, it's in some ways, especially for people who have to look at politics all the time, you know, a lot of our politicians have left the scene because they couldn't face the life and the scrutiny by the media and so on that they were facing. So I think that is a second really important thing that you've done - this sense of really trying to encourage young people to engage and be active and to not turn away but to turn to politics and be involved.
But I actually wanted to ask you a question, which is that I work for, as Julia mentioned, the Constitution Unit, which is very much about political institutions. And we've done a lot of work - we have a project called 'Constitutional Principles and the Health of Democracy', which is all about how we can counter backsliding in this country and around the world.
I think maybe there's a missing chapter in the middle that sort of bridges the two bits of the book, because I think it's wonderful to encourage young people to be involved and active. But we can't just leave it to them because these problems are urgent. And with the best will in the world towards our brilliant students and other brilliant young people, it is going to be a few years before they get to be prime minister.
So I wanted to turn it back to you and say: could you just fill that gap in terms of what perhaps some of the people on the political scene now need to do? Perhaps to do two things.
One is to encourage that involvement of young people. Are there obstacles that you see in the system? I think the students are going to talk about this, but do you see obstacles in the system that could be removed by those who are in the system now to encourage young people in?
But secondly, what do we need to do now to fix the problems in the first half of the book before they get there so that it's not totally broken when they arrive. And in particular, obviously, with the potential of a Labour government, which the polls predict and which you would support, what do you think Labour should be planning to do to achieve that?
Alastair Campbell 11:05
Well obviously I really do want to change the government. And I think the change of government will, of itself, help to open up the possibilities of making big difference. But it's not going to be enough.
I would actually like to see Labour. I've been quite encouraged by this stuff Angela Raynor has been doing actually, talking about this whole sort of trying to get ethics back into politics, because that has been...
You know, I know we used to get criticised for all sorts of things, but day after day I look at these people. I think they literally are smashing the standards on which politics is meant to be based. And I thought Sunak would be better than Johnson and Truss. And I think on this I'm not convinced that he is.
So I'll tell you something. I've actually said this to Kier Starmer and I hope he listens. I'd really love it if he stood up some point in a very, very prominent place - maybe during the campaign, maybe before - and said: the Nolan Principles that John Major brought in - honesty, openness, objectivity, selflessness, integrity, accountability and leadership - they are as ripe for today as they were there. We've got to restore them, and I'm putting every single one of my team on notice that if they break any of them at any time, I don't need an ethics advisor, I don't need a Privileges Committee, they're out.
And I just think that, of itself, could transform things. I think that would then work down through public services, because that would, you know... I've noticed in... I was in school the other day, and this head teacher said, 'It's so hard at the moment to get children to understand why it's important to tell the truth'. And they literally say things like: well Boris Johnson did it and he's the prime minister, that Donald Trump does it and he was the president. So that's the first thing.
I think the second thing I'd say is that too many of our MPs - and we've seen it this week, it has been like watching a parallel universe - too many of our MPs honestly think that they are in a separate superior world to where real people live. And they've got to rebuild that sense of politics being in communities all the time. And I don't think enough of them do that. The best MPs I think still do. The best councillors definitely do. So that sense of making people understand that politics isn't just about them. It's actually about the people that they're meant to be serving.
I would lower the voting age. I was in this primary school the other day and one of the kids said, 'Why do you have to be 18 to vote?' And I said, 'Well, you know, that's when we're technically deemed to be an adult, we can make our own decisions'. I said, 'I'd lower it to 16'. And this kid sitting cross-legged, he was about seven, he said, 'What's wrong with five?'
And I'm actually, you know, I would think about raising... I'd certainly find ways of encouraging... You know how when you go to school you're encouraged to run around the playground - that's really good for you to exercise every day. I think we should encourage children that politics is actually good for them, in that, what is politics? Politics is talking about stuff to try and make decisions about things that matter. That's all it is.
Julia Macfarlane 14:02
I'm keen to get our young people on the panel involved.
Alastair Campbell 14:04
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah.
Julia Macfarlane 14:04
So I want to hear from every single one of you. What do you want the older generations - what do you want the generations that came before you - to know about the barriers that you guys face in getting involved in politics, in talking about politics, in getting people to take you seriously about talking about politics?
This is obviously a really difficult time for students: there's a cost of living crisis, student debt, a lot of campaigning and activism is unpaid. These are serious things to think about. So I want to hear from all of you about what you want other people to know about the challenges in getting involved in politics.
Ismail Abbas 14:43
Wonderful. So I think I'll begin by something that everyone's afraid to admit, but it's the harsh reality. Private sector jobs versus public sector jobs. It's like a tug of war. You know, do we want the high paying private equity investment banking job or do we want the slightly lower paying, you know, job in politics?
And I think there comes a point where we need to place a value on what we stand for, especially financial value. How much are we willing to sacrifice to get things done; are you willing to sacrifice that big paycheck from the investment banking job just to see a change?
So I think that's one big issue that we see in our youth, sort of, you know, lack of financial reward. But it's a reality, and we have to put up with it. So I think that's something that everyone's very afraid to admit, but it's a startling truth.
And another, you know, sort of misconception that I really sort of dislike, is that I'm not going to get into politics because I don't have enough knowledge on it. Do you seriously think that our politicians have knowledge on politics, you know?
Alastair Campbell 15:48
That's what the five year olds said.
Ismail Abbas 15:50
Exactly. The five year old's probably smarter than a few MPs in there. So, you know, I'd say having that political jargon - it's just a load of bureaucracy, you know. Politics is about standing up for something and standing up for a message, and everyone has a moral framework, so why can't everyone get involved in politics? So I think that's definitely another issue.
And something that's overlooked in politics is policy. So, you know, if leaders are not following the science, how can we make meaningful change in policy? If Trump is telling people to drink bleach to cure Covid, and not follow the science, how can we make meaningful change in policy?
So I think that's some of the issues that come with, you know, youth involved in politics. And I'm sure my peers will touch on a few others that I have in mind.
Carolina Tani 16:39
Well I don't think I can top that amazing intervention, but I will bring up something else.
Personally, I'm very interested in the journalism side of politics and what I think is one of the first approaches for people our age, which is reading, watching political news.
And my lovely roommate is here in the audience somewhere, and I was having a talk with her about reading the news and mainly through platforms such as social media like Instagram. And she was telling me how she started to unfollow every single one of the main news networks, such as I'm gonna say BBC, Washington Post CNN, but even more specific of our country's, say, la Repubblica for Italy. And I was thinking about what she said, and I started to really look at what information we are told firsthand.
So these are the type of posts that BBC or a newspaper would put for people, not only the ones who are interested in politics that will actually look to it, but also people who maybe are not but want to be aware of what's going on in the world. And it's just fluff. I don't know how to explain. It's like really masquerade of what the real political news is. And it's just, we laugh about it. It's hilarious. And we ask ourselves: is this really the real news?
And I think that we come to a crossroad. Either we stop unfollowing them, and then we're like, what stops us from not following the news at all, since we're not following the big newspapers. Or we look at alternatives.
And I was really surprised. I was talking with people from my cohort, and I was asking them, 'Well, where do you get the news?' And many people said, 'Well, alternative newspapers or Instagram pages'. There's a really famous one called 'So Informed', which is a fairly old woman that runs this page and just posts about news. And so many more people follow that kind of thing - that's kind of young generation-lead information - because we just find it more trustworthy.
So my question is: if we cannot trust what we should be able to trust - the big newspaper - well, how are we expected to get involved in it, because we all really don't trust the first information.
Julia Macfarlane 18:46
I think that's a really important fact and I really want to come back to it. But I want to hear from our other panelists before we do that.
Ahmad Ismail 18:52
I would love to come in after this point, because I think mine fits very neatly with what you said. And you do touch up on this in the book on multiple points and you did now. It's how far removed politics feels from us, especially with all the culture war stuff.
And one thing in your book that I find interesting, and I think is a great example of this, is when Tony Blair was going around arguing in a council estate on atomic energy. And the woman was telling him, 'I care about the rats that are running around my flat'.
And this is how it feels like in terms of a student who has their course, who has part time work, who has so many things going on, where it's like it's hard to get through the day, let alone think about something that's so far from us, especially when they're talking about things that affect a very small subsect of the population.
And it's polarising groups against each other. Someone with so much going on could look at it and say, well, I don't really want to be involved, especially within the context of these culture wars, where it's brought up in the frame of disagreeing agreeably, which is what we're doing here. But we're actually doing it instead of just screaming at each other, and oftentimes these debates come from a position of power - a position of privilege from the person asking - and for the person disagreeing, especially when others involved, it's their identity on the line. With all the culture war stuff, we know it very much like to target minoritised groups.
So within that context as well, when a politician or someone who is disagreeing leaves the context and goes home, they've left the conversation. But when someone on the other side of the conversation as well leaves the conversation - as a black student, as a trans student, as whatever - they still carry that identity with them. So even that framing within the culture wars of actually disagreeing is wrong, and it further serves to distance us from politics I think.
Sofia Massacesi 21:02
I think to follow up on that. I think a really big point is the idea of what a young person in politics looks like. And I really liked in the book that you touched upon what wokism is and being considered a woke individual. And I think a big barrier for our generation is: oh, if I can't put it on my LinkedIn and I'm not like the president of that initiative, then is it worth it? Because we have so many other things going on that if I'm not that passionate activist that's leading the project, then it's just not worth my time.
And I think redefining, reapproaching politics from a more maybe hands-on, grassroots, community-based approach, that's not focused on, okay, we have to have this big output, we have to have this huge campaign that we run, but maybe we just want to focus on this one issue that we want to solve, would be a bit more realistic, and the sense of involving people that are not necessarily immediately drawn to politics.
Because I have a lot of friends that are in STEM courses and they don't really want to talk about my course, they don't really want to talk about current events necessarily, or if they do, it's to complain about the wokeness and the fact that they feel that because they're not super passionate about something immediately, they're going to be kind of ostracised from it.
And I remember the first time i I told someone that I was studying politics, it was a certain type of person, and he told me, 'Oh, so, you're like a feminist?' Which I'm like, it's a lot more than that.
So I think redefining how we see young people in politics, and this links back to social media as well - what you touched upon as well - kind of understanding that there's a space to disagree, but that also maybe we don't all have to be constantly arguing about the social scene, about big topics. We just maybe need to look at our more local issues, more small initiatives and small campaigns.
Alastair Campbell 22:59
Wow.
Julia Macfarlane 23:00
I think the idea of disagreeing well is something that the UCL Policy Lab have been doing a program on this. This is something that you've sparked a bit of a trend, Alastair, on this idea of political frenemies and disagreeing agreeably, which I think is really important.
And I think all of those answers have touched upon this new divisiveness and tribalism that we are seeing that is being incredibly corrosive to our politics. And that's something that we are seeing, as you say in the book, in our media and our politics.
What do you think is the best way for us to move away from that?
Alastair Campbell 23:43
Well, first of all recognise it. I mean there were some really interesting observations there, but if I can try and sort of knit a few of them together.
I think it'd be a very, very brave politician who stood up in the current climate said, 'We've got to triple the salary of our MPs and our ministers'.
I do some work in Singapore, and I think they pay their ministers about a million dollars a year. And they go out and find them. And you know, now it's a very different sort of country. But I think that would be very, very difficult.
And it won't happen until the politicians have rebuilt the sense that they are people who deserve to be respected. And that won't happen if the kind of tenor of the coverage of politics in our media is basically to say they're all terrible people trying to do terrible things to you. Or, on the other hand, like, if you look at the right wing newspapers today, you'd have thought that Rishi Sunak's speech yesterday was the second coming. You know, so they're both different forms of dishonesty. And I think calling that out.
And funnily enough, the point about I really understand - and I get why it's so confusing and sort of troubling - that you don't kind of know who to trust and what is factual and what's not. I think you just have to train yourself in that. And that is about looking around. I mean these these newspapers, I mean, they're not worked out why sales are going down. People are working it out.
Television. I was at a thing this morning. It wasn't the young people - it was like a business audience, and they were doing one of those instant word clouds about where they get their news and what media they follow. Newspapers barely figured. The BBC barely figured. This was with a middle aged audience.
So it's kind of - it's atomisng. And within that, I think what has to happen - or what we need to do - is first of all the politicians have to understand it. They need to stop talking like robots. They need to stop speaking to such a narrow kind of perspective the whole time.
I hope Labour's conference next week is better than the one we've just seen. But this week's I found it just... Look, I'm Labour, and because it's been such a car crash, I'm kind of quite happy in a way. But it's just so depressing. That is the nature of our political debates. Suella Braverman, does she even believe that stuff that she says? Maybe she does, I don't know. Sunak pretending that he agrees with it. It's just, it's just awful.
And I think the other the other point that I thought was... This thing about grassroots stuff. I mean most MPs will say they do it, okay. But they're clearly not doing it, most of them.
By the way, there are some brilliant grassroots MPs, there really are. And, you know, to be fair to Jeremy Corbyn, who's on a very different wing of the Labour Party to me, but he did come and get that sense of kind of, you know, energy in politics in my view.
But most of our politicians are literally cut from the same cloth. You know, they kind of look the same, they sound the same, and that sense of kind of compelling reasons why they're in it and why they're doing it. And also I think the politicians have got to get tougher.
I write in the book about - I've invented the word - 'persavilience'. I'm obsessed with Shakespeare inventing words, and I'm determined to get one word in the Oxford English Dictionary. And I tried 'Bregret'. I've tried all sorts of words that just... 'Brexomerta' - tried that one. So I'm now going for 'persavilience'.
But there's a sense that they're always playing to a never lower common denominator of what the political debate is about. And what we've lost - I think this is something which is why it's so important, you know, what you guys do at UCL - we've lost the educative process in the political process itself.
You know, obviously I still think Tony Blair was a terrific leader and all that stuff. But I think one of the things - Tony was probably the last leader who did this - was this ability to explain really complicated stuff. Now, yes, he had a political agenda - of course he did - but actually explaining what's going on.
And for me, I talk about populism in the book. Populism isn't about being popular. Trump doesn't care about being popular. He cares about being loved by his base, but he doesn't want people like me and you to like him. He wants to be unpopular with us.
Suella Braverman, I didn't say much about her speech this week. Why? Because I know she gets her rocks off from people like me saying that she's evil, right?
They want to polarise. That is how populism works. Populism is about taking a problem and exploiting it rather than addressing it. And that's what we have to fix.
And I do think it is going to take a generation, I'm afraid, because, as Meg said, we just had an election in Slovakia. Okay, it's only a small country, but it's a member of the European Union. They've just elected as prime minister a populist who was kicked out of office a few years ago for being corrupt. They brought him back.
You know, Modi, in India. The dictatorships, it goes without saying - Putin, Xi in China. We had Bolsonaro. Okay, he's gone, but, you know, that form of policies is around. We've got to challenge it.
And this point - let me just finish on this maybe. This point about where... And I totally get why people feel kind of repelled about the way they're taught about, the way that...
And, you know, if I was a trans person watching that speech by Sunak yesterday. I don't know if you saw the bit where he was, you know, basically he was completely playing to the base. You know, a man is a man and a woman is a woman and all that stuff. And, you know, I can see why somebody's gonna think, well, they're never gonna listen to me. I'm just moving out of it. But if you do that you lose any chance of changing the nature of the debate.
And one thing. My favourite part of the book is actually where I talk about people who have made a difference who are the sorts of people who you don't expect to make a difference.
I love the story about... I'm sure some of you here know the story of Gina Martin, who was the woman who found these guys taking pictures of her up her skirt, complained to the police. The police, very honest about it, said, 'We don't know what to do because actually there's no law against it'. And she just decided there and then, I'm gonna get that law changed. And she did it. And she did it by engaging with politicians, engaging with the media, working out, not sort of saying the media is going to tell me what the issues are. I'm gonna go and find out which bits of this atomised landscape I can use to get the stuff changed that I want to change. And that's the kind of mindset I think we have to have.
Greta is a more obvious one. Greta Thunberg, I think it is amazing what she's achieved. You know, has she actually stopped the planet from burning? No. Has she moved the dial on the debate? No doubt about it.
And here's a great story for you. Do you know when she first appeared outside the Swedish parliament on her own with her little placard, 'school strikes for the climate', do you know why she was on her own? Because it was raining and she was meant to be going with a load of friends and they decided not to go because it was raining. And in a funny sort of way, I think it's the picture that started her on the road that she's sort of traveled. And I just think that's, you know... So just imagine if she decided she wasn't gonna go that day because it was raining.
Julia Macfarlane 31:08
There's something I just want to touch upon, because you're right to point out Greta as a really inspirational young person in politics.
But something I do want to hear from everyone is about the price of a life in politics and the toll that it takes, because the job description has changed quite a bit for MPs.
I mean, Meg, you have worked in politics. I wanted to ask you, there was an interesting article by Charlotte Ivers of The Sunday Times who did a long read recently on why so many politicians under the age of 40 are quitting. Now-
Alastair Campbell 31:44
She wrote a very snotty review of my book by the way.
Julia Macfarlane 31:46
Let's not go there.
Quite a lot of them are Conservative MPs, and so part of their decision I'm sure is because they're reading the tea leaves about the next election.
But I just wanted to read you this paragraph that I think is important for us to sort of reflect on. She says, 'many of the MPs I spoke to commented on how the job has become more stressful than ever, not least because of the 'always on demands' of social media and the constant abuse levelled at them, both online and in real life. Never far from anyone's mind is the fact that two members of parliament, Joe Cox and David Amos, have been murdered by members of the public in the past eight years.'
I think we expect a lot of our members of parliament these days, not just in terms of the demands of the job, but also given the landscape. And this is true of people not just in politics, but people in the public eye. There is an inordinate amount of abuse: online harassment, trolling, and that can very often lead to physical abuse.
What should be done about this? And we are here tonight to talk about: what are the barriers to young people getting into politics and how can we fix them? How can we persuade young people to go into politics when it is increasingly becoming something that can very often be a risk, can cause damage to your mental health, to your family life? How should we tackle this?
It was for Meg, but it's for-
Meg Russell 33:12
You want me to answer? Goodness me.
Well, I think-
Julia Macfarlane 33:16
You don't have to if you don't want to.
Meg Russell 33:17
One of the things that we're thinking about at the Constitution Unit is there's only going to be a partial answer because I think it's a really, really difficult question.
But I do think that good behavior and role models need to come from the top. And in our book, which you were kind enough to mention - which my coauthor Lisa James may be here - 'The Battle over Brexit'. That was obviously a terrible kind of poisonous time in politics. The debates in the in the House of Commons became so unpleasant and people were so polarised.
And there is a moment that we recall in the book, quite late on - which you'll remember Alastair, I'm sure - just after the Commons had come back together after the prorogation decision in the Supreme Court, when we saw the British public was polarised with respect to the role of parliament and with respect to the role of the court. So you had Leavers in opinion polls saying that they supported the prorogation and Remainers being against the prorogation. Leavers being against the Supreme Court. So we're polarising people with respect to our core institutions - the Supreme Court and parliament.
And do you remember that intervention from Paula Sherriff? She said to Boris Johnson when he was being very unrepentant about his very divisive language, she said, 'People in here are receiving death threats every day of the week'. And what was his reply? 'I've never heard so much humbug in my life', was his reply.
And John Bercow was very exercised about it. Lots of people were very exercised about it at that time, and most recently over the Johnson Privileges Committee inquiry. Obviously we've heard the stuff about the kangaroo court and so on.
I think our politicians actually need to take more responsibility for treating and talking about our political institutions with respect, and not using that kind of polarising language.
We're going to see a new parliament, probably in 2024, and I actually think one of the things we would like to do is get engaged with the new intake of MPs to encourage them to think about the constitutional - the bigger responsibilities that they have beyond their own parties to actually protect our political system and our discourse.
Alastair Campbell 35:34
When I said earlier that I'm not convinced that Sunak is... I mean, okay, he's probably not as big a liar as Johnson and he's not as utterly useless as Truss. But it's such a kind of low bar.
But I thought that dig... I don't know if you saw the speech yesterday, but the crack he made about Nicola Sturgeon was really, really low, and possibly contempt of court. I don't know if you saw it, but he basically said she wanted to go down in history as the person who broke up the UK. She's gonna go down for somebody else. I mean I thought that is kind of, you know, low.
By the way, you mentioned John Bercow. Our motto... When I told this to Rory Stewart live on the podcast, he was appalled. John Bercow was the person who gave me that motto, 'disagree agreeably'. He said, 'But the trouble is in this Parliament, we've lost the art of disagreeing agreeably'. And that is where the the idea of came from - that is what we try to do, disagree agreeably.
But I think this thing about private family life and all that, I understand. I mean, of course, you've seen people murdered - it's horrific. And that goes back to the point about rebuilding respect for politics and politicians. And the politicians - this is where Meg's right - have to take the lead in that.
I remember when John Smith died. John Smith, former leader of the Labour Party before Tony Blair, when he died, you'll remember this, there was like days of 'may this herald a gentler politics', everybody coming out saying how marvelous it was, how sad it was. And then within a week, everybody's back to that, because that's the way our system works.
And so I think you've got to be careful not to drive that passion out. But if you infect that and lace that with this polarising post-truth stuff, then I think we really are in a dangerous route.
And the problem with a lot of our media... I was just talking to somebody from here - James, from UCL, who's just been up at the Tory party conference, who says everywhere the GB newspeople went, they were being kind of mobbed as like stars. Why? Because they are now part of the polarising team. And they're being used in that way.
Now, the rest of the media should be challenging that, but they're not - they're playing the same game because they're seeing that it might work.
So we as consumers, what can we do? What power do we have?
I tell you what I've done. I've stopped reading them all. I get the FT at the weekend and that's it. I read books, not newspapers.
Julia Macfarlane 38:03
Alastair-
Alastair Campbell 38:03
That is the way to kind of educate yourself easily. You're not going to get much, you're not going to miss much if you never ever saw The Daily Mail again in your life. You will be happier, healthier and better informed, believe me.
Julia Macfarlane 38:17
We have a question. We have a question from sixth formers from the UCL Academy.
Alastair, do you think too much of the debate at the moment is about government failure and not enough about what the opposition has to offer? And what is it you think they do have to offer?
Alastair Campbell 38:37
Ah, well. Right, okay, let me throw a few things out to the audience. I'm going to give you three options here for who will be prime minister in two years time: (a) Sunak, (b) Starmer, (c) somebody else, okay.
Hands up who thinks Sunak will be prime minister in two years time. God, after their amazingly successful conference, I don't understand. We've got one guy. Hands up, two guys.
Hands up who thinks Starmer will be prime minister.
Hands up who thinks somebody else.
Okay, so Starmer wins, somebody else second, Sunak third.
Hands up in this very educated, politically engaged audience, who could come up here now and tell me five things that they know will be different by electing a Labour government.
Are you a councillor?
Audience member 1 39:35
I work for a Labour candidate.
Alastair Campbell 39:39
You work for a Labour candidate, okay. Give us... Come on then, have a go. Have a go. Come on. Here we go. You're gonna try it, okay.
Audience member 1 39:51
Green economy.
Alastair Campbell 39:53
Green economy, yeah. Via? How?
Audience member 1 39:57
Investing in-
Alastair Campbell 39:59
Yeah, the GB energy bank. The GB energy bank, yeah. Two?
Audience member 1 40:03
I thought it only started last weekend.
Alastair Campbell 40:05
Okay. Two?
Audience member 1 40:09
Fixing the NHS. Like, better social care.
Alastair Campbell 40:14
Yeah, okay.
Audience member 2 40:15
What does that mean?
Alastair Campbell 40:17
Hey, give the guy a break, he only started last week. Yeah, three?
Audience member 1 40:23
[Inaudible]
Audience member 2 40:23
How?
Alastair Campbell 40:25
Growing the economy. Just leave him alone. Big bully. Bloody Tories getting everywhere.
Ah good man, good man.
Audience member 1 40:38
Building more houses and fixing the housing crisis.
Alastair Campbell 40:40
Yeah. Yeah.
Audience member 1 40:43
I should probably remember the last two.
Julia Macfarlane 40:44
Okay, okay, I think the point is the message is not hugely... It's not penetrating. How can they change that?
Alastair Campbell 40:54
It's a very, very good question, the UCL Academy student.
And I think this is where the debate is right now, because I think the country feels there's got to be a change, and the country is basically saying, 'not sure'. That's the bit that has to be fixed, starting next week, big time.
Because I actually do think it's possible. I think it's possible that Labour could win really, really big, but not as things are now.
And what I think Kier Starmer's... I think people are sick of the showbiz, I think they're sick of the kind of Johnson kind of politics is entertainment. I actually don't mind a bit of boring, I don't mind a bit of solid, I don't mind a bit of stayed.
I think Kier is not actually boring, but I think that he's serious and he's steady and he's solid, and we want a bit of that.
But the other thing is I'm obsessed with strategy, and I think what he's done is go through three phases.
Phase one: kind of rebuild the Labour Party after 2019, distance itself from the reasons why we lost - antisemitism, Corbyn, policies that weren't credible. That's stage one.
Stage two was show that the Tories had it: not on your side, incompetent, corrupt, all the things that we've seen.
And stage three has now got to be the difference. And ultimately, you can get over the line with the first show of hands - you can get over the line with that, just. But if you really, really, really want to win and get a majority that allows you to make change, you've got to win pretty big.
And I think the key to that is, in a sense, I hope next week we don't see too much Torry bashing. I hope we see: I want you to vote Labour because if you do, this, if you do, this. And it's got to be clear.
The one thing I give to Sunak is that, you know, most people will know today that yesterday he talked about scrapping HS2 - bad mistake, but it was clear; big change on smoking - actually, probably okay; and then reforming education and the exam system at 18. There was there was a clarity to it. There wasn't a political or intellectual coherence, but it was clear.
I think that Labour are not yet in that position where people who are like you, let alone people who don't even care about politics, who would no more think of coming out to an event like this than flying to the moon, right - they need clarity about what Labour would do. And that's where the political debate is now.
Julia Macfarlane 43:19
We have a question from 'concerned Whitehall employee'. That's quite a name - your parents must have been really onto something.
Now, how can we combat the increasing weaponisation of the culture wars and the damage that they do to evidence-based policymaking?
Alastair Campbell 43:37
By awareness, by highlighting. I think if you're a concerned Whitehall employee and you're a civil servant - I think it must be awful being civil servant at the moment. I think that this constant...
We interviewed Theresa May on the podcast last week, and she was making the point. She said, 'I never ever, ever felt that a civil servant was trying to obstruct me from what I did'. And by the way, nor have this lot, but they pretend that that's what's going on because it gives them another person to blame for the fact that they're failing on policy. And it's part of this popular strategy: blame other people for things that you're failing to resolve yourself.
So what I would say to the concerned Whitehall employee: hang in. I completely understand if you don't, but I would hang in because I do think that if there is a change of government, that has got to be a big part of the change that comes.
And the point I make to Labour: this is the kind of stuff that actually doesn't cost money. Treating people with respect; telling them actually they're not the blob, they're not seen as the enemy within, they are respected. We do want to get back to a place where civil servants give advice knowing that even if the administrator disagrees with that advice, they're not going to blame them - that is a big part of how politics should work.
Meg Russell 44:57
And we do obviously - this may not be on - encourage our young people and our excellent UCL students to go into the civil service, don't we. Because many of them do and yeah.
Alastair Campbell 45:07
Actually Theresa May said that. She actually said that. My experience...
Now Theresa May was a pretty controversial politician in lots of ways, but she said, 'So far as I'm concerned, the civil service was the jewel in the British crown'. She said that. So hang on to that for about a year.
Meg Russell 45:22
And that is kind of leading from the top with the right kind of messages, which is exactly what I was saying politicians need to be doing, yeah.
Alastair Campbell 45:27
Yeah.
Julia Macfarlane 45:29
This question I think is really, really important. It's one that I'm very interested in. Oh, God, this page keeps refreshing and moving all the things.
J Bradshaw asks: what can we do to address the rising concern of AI creating, generating false materials, potentially leading to an influx of misleading propaganda in politics?
I mean, you just have to look at all of those deep fakes of President Obama launching nuclear weapons on North Korea, all this kind of stuff. But we're also seeing it play out in real time with Ukraine. We are seeing a lot of it and we're seeing a lot of that spread, very unhelpfully, by the likes of Elon Musk, who's totally colonised Twitter, which did used to be the public square and it's now a hive of a lot of dangerous misinformation. And we are seeing the corrosive impact on that on politics.
What do we do about about AI and about-?
Alastair Campbell 46:20
Well funnily enough this thing that I talked about earlier, where it was a discussion about AI - and I'm a real technophobe, but I'm very, very interested in this area. I was sent something the other day which was a TV debate between Trump and Biden. And I could tell after a while that it wasn't real, but it was close. It was very, very close. And Biden kept stumbling, and he kept losing his place, he kept losing his words, and then when he walked he fell over.
Don't laugh, don't laugh, please.
And that, by the way, that laughter thing is really important. I think that what we've lost in our politics recently is seriousness.
Johnson became prime minister by making people laugh. Just think about that. You know, what was the big turning point? People say the big turning point in his career was when he was invited onto Have I Got News For You. This thing of politics is entertainment.
Your man, Mr Berlusconi - when I say your man, I mean your fellow Italian, not your man. But you know Berlusconi, he was a massive driver of this - he was the first who really understood the linking of media and politics and turning it into a form of entertainment. And that's become the norm.
Now we have to challenge that, I honestly say to people. I remember Tessa Jowell, who some of you will remember, who was a really nice, wonderful woman, minister in our government, great woman, terrific politician.
But I remember once we were staying down with her at her house and we were watching one of those Pop Idol or one of those bloody competitions, reality TV things. And she really liked this guy called 'Andy the postman'. And she was sitting there all night voting for Andy the postman. And I said, 'What the hell are you doing?' And I remember saying to her, 'Look, do you not realise what's going on here? These reality TV shows, they're basically inculcating people to think that this is how democracy works. This is voting for something that matters to you.'
And I think that has had a real impact. Voting now is like: I can't be bothered. Because it's easier sitting in your telly and go like that than it is to get out and walk down and find out what the candidates think and so forth.
So I think we just have to be more serious about what politics is for, what democracy means, why voting matters.
And when I talk about engagement, I don't think... Look, it'd be great if one of the four young people on this platform became a politician - it'd be great. But politics is so much more than that. Politics is about having ideas and deciding: I'm going going to persuade people to that idea. It's engaging on every single level.
It's, you know, some people can't face the idea of being high profile, I get that. And, you know, we didn't really go into your point about the impact on private life. It can be horrific.
You know, I remember walking my kids to school one day one and getting getting attacked by a load of protesters. My sons were just about getting to the age where they could fight back, but it was it was grim. It was grim.
When I worked in government, I didn't really have a holiday for a decade. I went away with the kids and Fiona but I didn't have a holiday. Now, and I'm being honest about that in the book, but I'm also saying it's still worth doing.
And next door... Julia Gillard, who works for Wellcome next door and she's also... Is she attached to this or is it at King's she's at?
Meg Russell 49:59
King's.
Alastair Campbell 50:00
She's at King's. And I interviewed her not long ago and said, 'Honestly, if an 18 year old young woman came to you and said, 'Look, I'm thinking about going into politics, but I see what happens to people like you''. People who haven't seen it, by the way, Google 'Julia Gillard's misogyny speech' - it's one of the best speeches ever made, and it was about misogyny in Australian politics.
And I said, 'Would you really honestly say to that young woman, 'you should do it?'' And she said, 'Do you know what I'd say to them? I'd say, 'I had a lot of hate on the way, but I don't remember it. What I remember is the fact that I was able to do stuff that changed people's lives''. And you have to hang on to that.
The stuff that social media... In the end, I say to my... My daughter's a comedian. She gets upset sometimes by reviews and stuff like that. I say to her, 'Look, why do you care what these people think? Care about what I think, care about your mum thinks, care about your friends think. Don't care about this other nonsense.' And I think we all have to... That's how we get self protection.
Julia Macfarlane 50:56
I want to squeeze in a few more questions.
Malika says, she ask: you mention that all MPs sound the same and look the same. How can we how encourage more working class people to run for parliament and feel more valued in politics? How can we get debating in state schools and things like that? Public speaking.
Alastair Campbell 51:15
Well I I'm really, really pleased that Labour have gone for this thing of oracy.
I mean the public schools, the private schools, they just take this stuff for granted. Eton has got a multimillion pound debating chamber, right. And there's old Rishi telling us that he's the guy to give us. Anyway, I won't go on.
But I think this point about working class... So here's the thing. This is the way lying in politics works.
I would make the case that Kier Starmer is probably the most working class leader of the Labour Party of my lifetime if you look at his background. As you may have heard, his dad was a toolmaker. And you may have heard his mum was a nurse. And he came actually from quite a tough background. And there they were yesterday talking about aspiration. He became a lawyer. I think he was the first person in his family to go to university. He became a lawyer, became a very good lawyer, became DPP.
As a result of that was, with our ridiculous honors system... I hope you're against that as well. Please tell me you are. I might have to disagree agreeably here. But a knighthood goes with the job: Sir DPP, so he becomes Sir Kier, right.
And then Boris Johnson, as elitist as they come - Eton, Balliol, Telegraph, all that nonsense - he starts attacking Starmer as an Islington lawyer. Sir Kier, who's never ever lived in Islington his life, and Johnson, who has not only lived in Islington, but probably fathered several of his children, right. So that's how it works. It's incredible.
So I would say Kier, you know, if Kier becomes prime minister, he's basically from a working class background.
I think we're back to tropes here. Like we think of the working class as like, you know, shipyard workers and miners, and a lot of those jobs have gone. I think how we should think of it is of people who've come from, you know, ordinary families. And there are quite a lot.
I mean you'd be amazed. I think I put them in the book. The stats in today's parliament of privately educated against state educated - state educated wins by a mile. It's the fact that we've had such high profile people that has maybe skewed that debate, added to which - here is one of my favorite stats, which explains everything that's wrong about this country - the Labour Party has produced six prime ministers in its history of 123 years; Eton College has produced 20. Think about that. That's what has to change.
Julia Macfarlane 53:59
We have an anonymous question. Unlike in 1997, the Labour Party still lacks the support of the right wing press. Do you feel that this will make them vulnerable closer to election time?
Alastair Campbell 54:15
I think they're less powerful than they were. I think what the right wing press do - and I mean I love the BBC in many ways and I think it's is a really important part of our culture - but the one big thing that does my head in is that they allow the right wing press to shape the nature of the debate that they cover.
Classic. I'll give you a classic example from yesterday. If a Labour leader had said what Sunak said about Nicola Sturgeon, that would have led several newspapers and, as a result, that would have been a big story on the media this morning. It didn't lead any newspapers; it barely got a mention in most of those newspapers; it's not been on the news.
And we see stuff like that happening all the time. Some of these corruption issues that have just been - you know, the whole Covid corruption, HS2. If I was still a journalist, I'd be asking: excuse me, where has all this money gone? And I think there'd be some very good digging to be done in there. But they don't do the digging. They only do the digging that sort of frames it for their agenda.
So that's where they have power. It's the power of omission, as well as the power of character assassination.
Now there was a very interesting poll today. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. The only newspaper in Britain at the moment - I can't remember who did it, but they polled the readers of every newspaper in the country - the only one where the Torries still have a lead over Labour is The Daily Mail, and it's down to two points.
So the owners of those newspapers and the editor of those newspapers are going to start to think: oh, we've just got to watch where the wind blows here.
I don't believe we didn't win the election because Murdoch backed us in 1997. Murdoch backed us in 1997 because he knew that we were going to win the election and he liked to stay in with powerful people.
I hope... Kier's had a taste of it because what they're trying to do, they basically want you, the public, to think that everybody's as bad as each other. So when we had the whole partygate thing - which was horrific and disgusting on so many level - once that sort was rumbling on, and then do you remember we had Kier Starmer up in Durham pictured with a bottle of beer, okay. The Daily Mail lead with that story I think it was 13 days in a row. Why? Because they were trying to say this is the same as having parties - they want to drag everybody down.
And the reason I raised that is I think he got a taste of what it's like. And I think he came through it pretty well. You can't let that stuff get into your head. You've got to just keep going with what you believe in what you do.
So I think they're less important than they were, but you'd rather have them. Tony Blair put it very well. He said, 'If you've got a rabid dog in the corner of the room, you'd rather it stayed in the corner of the room'.
Julia Macfarlane 57:09
Do we have time for one more question? I'm looking around for organisers and I can't them. But I'm just going to go ahead. One last question.
Well, Sally has the last question because I think it's quite good one. Would you do Strictly and, in all seriousness, do you think being on reality shows helps to connect politicians with the general public?
And I do want to ask you, as a former spin doctor, why do so many MPs - why do so many politicians - struggle to talk like humans?
Alastair Campbell 57:39
That's amazing, I agree. I was once driving up the M6 to go see Burnley. And I was driving the car, I was listening to Radio Five, it was a Saturday, lots of sport on the radio. And I won't say who it was, but one of our politicians... I'd left the job by then, but one of our politicians who was still in government came on the radio and did this interview that, honestly, I almost crashed the car - it was so bad, it was so bad. And I thought, do I phone her up, do I leave it.
Anyway, I bumped into about a week later and I said, 'By the way, I heard you on Radio Five the day. It wasn't good.' 'What do you mean?' she said. I said, 'Well, you literally said the same thing in every single answer'. But she said, 'But that's what you told us to do'. And I said 'No. I said, 'deliver the same message'. You literally said the same thing.' I said, 'You have to speak like a human being'.
And the thing is that the one thing that - I think you know this from being a journalist interviewing people - the one thing that infuriates the public: they'd rather hear a politician say, 'I don't know' or 'I'm not going to answer that' than to pretend that they're answering it.
If you get a yes- or no-answer question, say 'Well, actually, it's not yes or no - here's why it's complicated'. Explain it, instead of which...
And I get the blame for it. I do. She's not the only one. I get the blame for this. Well you would enter this sort of, you know, sound buying, get the line. But having a message is not the same thing as talking like a robot. And I don't know why they all do it. I think they think it's... I don't know, it's weird. It's depressing.
Look at the ones who cut through though. The ones who cut through don't talk like that.
I mean, part of Donald Trump's - whether we like it or not - part of his success as a politician is his utterly unique way of speaking. Seriously, he doesn't talk like a robot. He may talk nonsense, but it's sort of - it's compelling
Macron, I think, is a great communicator. And he broke through in the way that he did. And okay, he's got lots of problems now.
But you know I think there are some good communicators around, but the thing I say to them, I say to them all, is: speak like you're speaking to a real human being; don't speak like you're speaking to 'speak your weight machine' audition, because too many of them do that.
I will never ever do Strictly.
Julia Macfarlane 1:00:13
On that note, thank you so much everyone for coming. Thank you for submitting your questions.
Alastair, I understand you're staying behind to sign some books.
Alastair Campbell 1:00:20
Well only if people buy some. Where do you do that? Where do I go?
Julia Macfarlane 1:00:24
I actually don't know.
Alastair Campbell 1:00:25
There's somebody who's waving. You were waving at me? You know?
Julia Macfarlane 1:00:27
But someone will direct us to the right place to go.
Alastair Campbell 1:00:29
I know the photographer wants me to go by that UCL thing before I leave. I'm not posing, right. It's because he wants me to.
Julia Macfarlane 1:00:37
I suspect in the foyer. I did see a table with lots of piles of books, but of course everyone here already has read your book and has bought it already.
Alastair Campbell 1:00:43
How do you know?
Julia Macfarlane 1:00:45
Thank you so much everyone for coming. Thank you for your questions.
Alastair Campbell 1:00:48
Thank you.
Julia Macfarlane 1:00:48
And see you soon.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai